The Crown and Thistle has closed for refurbishment work to commence, and work should have started by now.
But instead of that, the scaffolding has been taken down again because of a dispute.
The Crown and Thistle has a front entrance onto Bridge Street that is used by pedestrians. It would be dangerous, and cause congestion, receiving deliveries and letting customers’ vehicles in that way. And so the pub is dependent on the back entrance which uses a council owned, council maintained, road. It is rumored that the council (not sure whether that is County, District or Town) has decided to bump up the charge that the Crown and Thistle pay for use of that road from 3 to 10 breadsticks a year.
Negotiations are carrying on between the parties. The 10K may have been in the council’s money saving plan, but it was not in the pub’s redevelopment plan.
If this is true then it gives some credence to the conspiracy theorists’ view that it’s the councils that are restraining the commercial growth/health of the town, not the shoppers.
Can someone tell us who is responsible for this increase? I would like to know exactly why they have done this! Unbelievable!
It is proposed to build a cinema in the refurbished Guildhall. One wonders where everyone attending the cinema would park. It is a shame that the refurbishment of the Crown and Thistle has been held up.
When someone mentioned this the other day I thought they were making it up. It’s the sort of thing you’d expect to crop-up in a dreary sit-com on The Box. Whoever thought this up on whichever council should be ashamed of themselves and we need them to be named so that they can never be elected again. It’s beyond stupidity. Give a small-minded person power and they think blackmail is legitimate. If the Crown & Thistle have been paying £3000 pa for this they’ve been cheated. This silly bit of bureaucracy should be resolved today by the council backing down.
It’s simply down to pure filthy greed. Whoever made this repulsive decision simply saw pound signs due to a company being prepared to invest a lot of money. They don’t think about the jobs it will create and increase in footfall for the town. As a local business person that is what I want to see but when we have a council who’s motivation is greed, what hope have we got?? Shocking and sickening, they should be ashamed!!!!!
Maybe the Crown & Thistle should buy the land, then charge the council £10,000pa to access the car park for the Guildhall. See how they like it!!!
Name and shame the council! You really could not make this stuff up.
Guildhall Car Park, big enough for about 6 vehicles (I seem to remember). and with the plans for the studio cinema to be on stilts at the rear of the Guildhall.
I understand the owners of the crown and thistle wish to create 30-40 new jobs for the town plus adding a listed building restored to its former glory do the council want it boarded up ??? they obvously have not thought of the towns heritage they should be answerable to this outrage
Outrageous? Well, I suppose there ARE other ways for the council to get money to pay for all the things we demand of them. They could double our Council Tax.
You want to invite people to park on your land all day and night so you can make money but you want them to drive over my land to get to yours? Oh, well that’s fine I hardly ever use it but I’ll maintain it so that you can. How much? Oh sod it, you can have it for free. Hmm, I’m sure we’d all say that wouldn’t we?…
Native, I don’t think it’s about whether the council charge for access but the fact that they are clearly profiteering from a company who want to add so much to our town by the way of jobs and redevelopment, by increasing the fee from £3000 to £10000.
Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture and not let greed take over!!
I think the council should be bending over backwards to encourage this company to invest in the town and to be honest they shouldn’t charge access at all.
I take your point about we might view it differently if it were our own private land – but it is not- it is council land, The people who are put in office to assure they make the best of every opportunity and encourage growth in our town.
What they have done is shoot themselves in the foot – yet again!
I would like whoever made this decision to make themselves known so that they can defend it – or not. But I’m sure that won’t happen!
Native, I don’t think it’s about whether the council charge for access but the fact that they are clearly profiteering from a company who want to add so much to our town by the way of jobs and redevelopment, by increasing the fee from £3000 to £10000.
Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture and not let greed take over!!
I think the council should be bending over backwards to encourage this company to invest in the town and to be honest they shouldn’t charge access at all.
I take your point about we might view it differently if it were our own private land – but it is not- it is council land, The people who are put in office to assure they make the best of every opportunity and encourage growth in our town.
What they have done is shoot themselves in the foot – yet again!
I would like whoever made this decision to make themselves known so that they can defend it – or not. But I’m sure that won’t happen!
Nothing this council does surprises me. As long as they get their pensions paid out of our council tax payments, that’s all they’re interested in.
Nothing to do with this debate but Jacko I think you’ll find that Councillors get an allowance in recognition of the many hours they put in – since they are not employees I rather doubt if it is pensionable!
Maybe something for Private Eye’s “Rotten Boroughs” column?
Yup, that back alley looks like it has at least £10k spent on it in maintenance each and every year….. frankly I doubt the council has spent £3k in the past century on it. Perhaps they are taking lessons from the parasitic Oxford City council who seem to think the town is there to serve the council rather than the other way round ?!?….
I am sure nobody has a problem with the Town Council (who now own the Guildhall) making a reasonable charge to the Crown and Thistle for access. However, £10K per year seems excessive to me.
I wonder whether the hike in charges is the result of the Guildhall changing hands from the District Council to the Town Council? This may have been the first time that the Town Council have had the chance to set the charges, and they felt that £10K was a more reasonable sum?
I know that the chair of the Guildhall Committee of the Town Council, Iain Littlejohn, often posts here, so perhaps he can shed light on whose decision this was?
The amount of money this is costing to refurbish i do not think 10k is going to bother them . The council does not surprise me as they are very greedy i spoke to a shop owner who said they do not make enough money for electric and wages .However the council and rates office said even though they are not making enough to live they still want their £600 rates and we wonder why shops close . I have not seen any comments from the councillor Iain on here is this coincidence .
The Guildhall is owned by the Town Council so it is likely to be them that is responsible.
As David says, the change may be down to the change in ownership from the Vale to the Town.
It may also be an initial ‘pitch’ in negotiations.
The councillors likely to be involved in this are Sandy Lovatt as Chair of the Finance & General Purposes Committee (de facto Leader of the Council) and Iain Littlejohn as Chair of the Guildhall Committee (who often posts here).
One of them may be able to clarify but they may also be bound by a degree of commercial confidentiality.
Clearly any council in circumstances such as these needs to balance their duty to get best value for the council with the aim of encouraging local businesses to thrive.
@abbo man – business rates are set nationally, and while local councils have some flexibility in discounts and flexibility they can offer they don’t have the freedom to set lower rates or to not charge. My brother runs a pub and has been able to get some flexibility during a difficult period but not relief from paying overall.
I can confirm it is the Town Council who this refers to.
As Neil suggested, I’m afraid I am not able to comment on the specifics of the negotiation as it is commercially confidential.
I can say that i believe the council has acted entirely appropriately in this negotiation and i’m afraid the commentary above does not represent a balanced view of the situation.
Those of you who have seen my previous posts know i am normally very happy to explain council decisions and answer questions, however I’m afraid I do not think it would be right to do so on this topic while discussions are ongoing.
i feel some brown envelopes under the cover of darkness may be in order .
Neil Fawcett … that’s a waste of space.
That’s no help whatsoever.
Tell us the last time you did anything in this town which had a positive consequence.
Iain, you are a disappointment.
Iain please tell me why in the worst financial climate in living history the council thought it was wise to redevelop the town shops . The shops were struggling anyway and then they had to face scaffold and noise and no paving . The footfall has been lost and the rubbish job that has been done with no retailer wanting to rent the units everyone is shopping in Didcot and witney . We have a historic pub that employs over 30 people and your council want to cash in before it makes a penny . @Neil rates should be based on profit not property you could start a shop tomorrow and not make any money for a year or two Tesco can let a shop next door similar pay the same rates and make mega money instantly .
It will be a disaster if the crown and thistle does not reopen as an upper class venue shame on you council you should be encouraging local businesses to thrive
@Holly The council have never helped or encouraged any business they just tax them to the hilt and help themselves .
I’m sure Iain and Neil are concerned that the issues are too complex for our tiny minds. Perhaps they should educate us via a blow-by-blow account of the ‘commercially confidential’ negotiations around the current situation. Do the people who own the Crown & Thistle regard the situation as commercially confidential? Might they like to comment? It would help all us poor fools to know how our clever masters deal with such things and, as an aside, to know how funds are dispersed. Perhaps an example from the past like the cash flow around, say, The Gaol. It would be educational.
It’s just been mentioned to me that the people who’ve bought the Crown & Thistle might walk away if the Town Council don’t stop being arseholes. I wouldn’t blame them, who needs this kinda needless hassle from self-appointed clever-clogs who just might be defining the unhelpful relationship the pub could have with the Town Council.
I’ve got this from a reliable source, not the C&T, nor anyone who might spring to mind. It’s reliable. The C&T have taken down the scaffolding (this is a cost consideration … just in case the numpties in the council don’t realize). The Town Council looks as though they could stop this business in its tracks.
Fools, not a commercial brain-cell between them.
I understand that the C&T people read this. It would be illuminating were they to feel able to comment in the future (especially were they to name the guilty men).
If I was the new owner of the Crown & Thistle, I would be getting a search made on the historical ownership/right-of-way of this alley.
@newcomer This is outrageous the council is worried about 10k imagine the business rates on this place . The crown and thistle could get 30+ local people of the dole who will then have wages to spend in town . The pub will bring in visitors to stay the night . This council is ruining this town its all take and no give .
We were mulling this over a few pints in a local pub tonight.
My mates R & R both said, well when do we get to vote for these numpties again – and no we don’t have short term memory loss !
Sort it out now and lets get the C&T refurb back on course.
@Newcomer – I’m very sorry if you thought my answer was ‘a waste of space’. I was simply trying to confirm which council it was and explain what the situation might be.
I am not a Town Councillor and have no knowledge of this issue other than what is publicly available. Those who are Town Councillors will have to make their case.
I also tried to answer ‘abbo man’ about business rates, which many people think local councils still set.
As for the last time I did anything useful for this town, that would have been a few days ago when I went through a long list of highways issues in my county division with county council staff, a number of which will now be dealt with as a result.
Just for the record, Abingdon Town Councillors get an allowance of around £850 per annum with no pension.
@Neil Fawcett thats to much money as there are to many councillors we do not need . £850 per annum but massive claims in expenses i am guessing
This is a very sorry situation, Abingdon has the potential to be a little Henley , we have the history, the river , lots of independant retailers but we have a lack of hotel rooms to accommodate any tourists, so I hope the crown and thistle and any issues with the council can be overcome ASAP
C&T could just bring in the traffic through the entrance on Bridge Street. Not ideal but it is better than paying any extra money to the council.
Order, Counter-order – Disorder ! (read “waste”)
Whatever the “good reasons” for this decision and timing, I am underwhelmed by the result.
Presumably there was an agreement to put it there before the price hike intruded, so why did the scaffolding have to come down ? Isn’t there a legal obligation to allow access for structural maintenance where there is a shared boundary ? The road ‘toll’ (ultimately to be paid for by C&T customers) is a separate matter once operating.
@moody man – I don’t think town councillors tend to claim expenses. They’re probably entitled to claim travel if they go to meetings elsewhere, but most of what they do is within the town so it’s probably not much.
It’s perfectly reasonable for Iain not to comment on this during the negotiations – that approach is entirely consistent with any company engaged in commercial discussions. I’m sure he will be prepared to comment once the negotiations are complete.
Nick, I don’t think tax-payers want people who are going to improve the town extorted and wouldn’t like to be kept in the dark while this was being done in their name. It’s a pretty disgusting and foolish episode.
you’re ignoring that they probably can’t comment for legal reasons – you can’t want them to do that just for you.
rudi, if that’s addressed to me I’ll explain my comments.
1) The increase in rent of 223% is, on the Rachman scale, at eleven and whoever is behind the Council’s master-plan re. this should be running a pay-day loan company. It’s disgusting and extortion.
2) It’s foolish as the Town Council has shown it will try to rook anyone it can and is working on a reputation as the kinda people you’d not want to do business with. While other authorities are giving out grants to attract investment Abingdon Town Council are trying to extort money. It’s not clever and it’s not smart.
I’d not want the C&T people, who are smart cookies …. just go look at their place in Wallingford … to get into trouble and they’re too clever to do that. However, should they walk away it would be interesting were they able to tell us what the deal breaks were and who they were negotiating with. Why would the council object to that unless they have something to hide?
I moved to this town. I chose it and I wasn’t Abingdon born and inbred. I love the place and I’ve met some wonderful people (just about every day) since I moved here in late 2006. However, I’ve seen some misguided decisions re. town planning. I don’t accept that the people who allowed the Old Gaol development, authorized the inner ‘ring-road’ shambles, or are messing about with Bury Street have any love, or affection for the town. I made an investment in this town. I moved here and could have gone anywhere.
It’s criminal that the Council are messing around with OUR money and OUR town and expect us to allow them to do it in secret. Do they have something to hide?
It’s SMUG politics and I despair.
We are all so quick to lay the blame on the council without knowing all of the facts, myself included, but consider this.
it is quite possible that the council are being told by the VOA ( Valuation Office Agency) who are part of HMRC the rent that must be charged for the accesss over the council land !
I am not trying to defend the council, just saying that their may be external influences coming into play here.
I opened a shop in this town and it was the worst decision i have ever made . The footfall is non existent people say it is not to bad but when you stand in a shop for 8 hours it is dead . The shop does not even make enough wages to pay one staff if you open a shop here you will be bankrupt within a year we can not wait for our lease to end . The council will not help and landlords will not help and the local people are not loyal at all . The local people say i wish Abingdon had this and that and when you get it you do not use it you are back down tescos . I will never open another shop in this town and will look to open one in Didcot where you all shop anyway
@anonymous – what do you sell?
Anonymous has given it a good go and I’m very sorry it has not worked out and that they have lost money as a result. The comment is for real. You have to admire Didcot for what they have achieved in the last 7 or 8 years but they do have the very rich South Oxon District Council investing a lot of money to make Didcot a regional centre.
The land may be “council owned and maintained” but is there a pre-existing contract to give a right of way? Is it not possible for someone to claim that as this land has been used as a right of way for over 20 years it should qualify as a public right of way?
I hope this can be resumed as the crown and thistle will be an amazing addition to the town.
It is sad to read to many negative comments. Yes Abingdon has empty shops but for the first time in years it is not a building site!!! Surely we can all appreciate that! I’m sure it will only be a matter of time until the new units are filled. I see people constantly whinging at the council about empty units but most are nothing to do with the council and are owned by scottish widows or private landlords. Trade can be tough in Abingdon but I’m sure it is tough in many towns, the weather, the recession, the Internet do not help. I spend everyday In Abingdon and we do get tourists, locals and visitors using the town daily and as it continues to improve im sure the footfall will too.Maybe if local people stopped slagging it off and running it down all over blogs/ the herald etc if would become more appealing to visitors who in turn would bring trade and footfall to the town.
Local business when the town is back on its feet the moaning will stop . However it has been bad now for years and there is no light at the end of the tunnel .Yet ! People moan about empty shops but they only have themselves to blame if do not use the ones that are open they will shut . Simple
I gues it all falls under the Council trying to make a buck – they are going to rent out the Abbey House building to County – not that they are telling anyone!! Wonder where all the council tax payers will go to speak to the people that administer the services they pay for – Crowmarsh? Vale of South Oxfordshire with ego’s planning legacies if you ask me!!
Different councils Yvette
it is clear the writer of this blog did not get any info regarding this from the council so it is a bit or a unbalanced story.7
In regards to businesses open in abingdon: we cannot expect business to want to come to abingdon unless we make use of the town, so my advice is stop moaning and try to nip into the town more and spend money on our local retailers.
It would be a good thing if the Vale rented out the spare space in their HQ.
At present council taxpayers are paying the costs of a building that is under-utlised.
More people working there would probably be a help to town centre businesses.
I wouldn’t want the existing staff to be moved out though.
Dear all,
May I first of all apologise for my silence on this matter when it was first discussed on this Blog. Suffice to say I was itching to make comment but, for many reasons, that was not the sensible option.
I still can’t discuss detail at this point but I can confirm that the rumours indicating that we have been on the verge of withdrawing from this project are substantially correct. For the record, and for the benefit of the conspiracy theorists, the reason the story was ‘leaked’ was very simple – we had to tell our employees what was happening.
Anyway, the good news is that we are making some encouraging progress. We are grateful for the intervention of Councillor Iain Littlejohn who has brought all parties back to the table, and, whilst there is still ongoing negotiation between our professional advisors, the major obstacles have been dealt with and I am confident that we will reach a mutually agreeable solution to the access issue.
For now any feelings of hurt need to be put to one side and we need to get on with things. Wherever we are in business, we set out to be an integrated part of the community and I am sure that we will find a way forward. Certainly any anger that we feel towards any particular individuals is greatly outweighed by the positive feelings we have for the people of of Abingdon-upon-Thames. Certainly, I am determined to ensure that The Crown & Thistle will contribute to Abingdon-on-Thames and play a big part in the towns future development.
I would like to thank all those who contributed to this Blog. I have read every posting carefully and the comments have been a major part of our decision to press on with our investment. We were also greatly encouraged by the local business community who have rallied around us – Choose Abingdon and Abingdon Business Alliance just two – and of course our staff under Jane and Carol, our local management team who have had to endure so much uncertainty recently. I hope The Abingdon blog’s contributors will understand that whilst I was keen to join the debate it would have been inappropriate to do so. However, the views expressed upon it also contributed to our decision to continue negotiations.
Many thanks to all.
Peter Borg-Neal
CEO Oakman Inns
Apologies if my comment appears more than once: the attempts disappeared in a purple funk after submitting.
Anyway, regarding the Crown & Thistle dispute, the CEO of Oakman Inns, Peter Borg-Neal added a comment to the sprightly thread that followed the original “irresponsible” post on here. The comments don’t seem to allow me to link to it but you can find it in the June archive.
My own view is that the Borg-Neal contribution is gracious and in keeping with what I noticed when I went along to the sale of fixtures and fittings some time ago: that Oakman Inns are taking care of the legacy staff very well. Rare these days.
Welcome back, by the way.