Abingdon-on-Thames Town Council agreed plans and a budget for redeveloping the Guildhall in a meeting on the 15th December, and are working towards a planning application for the changes.
The back view of the Guildhall will change as the unused concrete ramp, that frames this picture, will disappear.
The main change is to the 1960’s Abbey Hall. The stage will move from the left end to the right end. Raked seating will be added on the left, and the hall will be soundproofed so that louder entertainments are heard inside rather than outside.
The grass area will become a ground floor glassed entrance with a cafe area.
The budget for the project is about £2 million. A half of that comes from money given to the town council by the district council as part of the hand over of the loss making Guildhall. The other half will come from a loan. The loan will be payed off by profits from the cafe.
The plans for the old entrance and foyer, and access to the old part of the building, are less clear. Answers to questions posed by Dr Jim Halliday, at a council meeting 2 weeks ago, indicated
“How the current lobby area and bar is used is subject to further discussion.”
“There is still an ongoing debate (with the proposed removal of the front ramp necessary to allow opening up the front elevation), how to still retain direct DDA access from the existing front steps to the existing first floor front entrance lobby. One suggestion would be to construct a discreet platform lift….”
So it appears that the plans are nearly there – but with some decisions still to take.
…will it be a well managed venue?
Is there a plan as to which activities/events will draw people into the building, or is the TC just traveling in hope on the basis that ‘If you build it people will come’?
The size of the rooms, the amenities, the whole infrastructure will determine and restrict what CAN be done in the Guildhall.
Form before function just seems wrong.
As for: ‘The loan will be payed off by profits from the cafe.’ … has there been a feasibility study to show this is possible, or is this a pipe dream?
There are so many cafes and restaurants in the town centre that I suspect residents are already in danger of caffeine psychosis.
I suppose everything will be okay if they’ve planned in a practice room for the third Morris side this town so sorely needs.
Were it up to me this monstrous architectural carbuncle would be demolished. Sorry but it’s simply hideous.
http://www.abingdon.gov.uk/system/files/sites/default/files/towncouncil/post_refurbishment_business_planning_report_january_2017.pdf
Business plan for above has been published on the town website
When the plans for renovating the county hall were announced (along with its costings) I was vehemently opposed to it, but you know what? I really like the finished product and I suspect the same will happen with this project too, I think it was unfortunate that the project got off to such a bad start ? I think, like others it was very badly handled which inevitable attracted nothing but negatives ! Faced with a loss making white elephant I think the TC are doing their best, but I am concerned there are still a few unknowns and with them are unknown costs too, but hey ho on we go
Its a shame – a real missed opportunity.
Architectural plans look fine given the constraints of the building.
Financial plans are woeful unfortunately. Baseline is misleading as £180k includes c£25k one off costs (delayed utility bill, long term sickness cover) which should either be excluded or also included in the future projections. The performance costs look very low as they go up as audiences rise (licensing is a percentage of gross ticket take). The staffing looks ambitious as it is about what we have today but will need to accommodate projected significant rise in usage plus deal with a cafe/bar, plus source events programme, plus drive greater levels of marketing activity. No account seems to be taken of capacity constraints at peak times eg both wedding and live event tend to disproportionately use saturdays not to mention ceroc once a month.
In short the council should be more honest, the new plans will cost roughly what it costs today to run (maybe a little less if more energy efficient and facilities improved), but we will be faced with an extra £60k a year of costs to finance the loan with no real prospect of covering those costs.
They should also reopen discussions with third parties who have a fighting chance of actually running an entertainment facility which the town will want to come to and can be proud of, rather than an expensive, glorified village hall.
If plans are to move the stage from the left over to the right, won’t that then make it nearer to the bar area (unless that’s being moved). If the bar stays where it is, it’ll be nearer the stage so won’t that make it noisy? Unless the idea is to keep the sound in the middle of the building instead of on an outside wall?
Yes tis an ugly building. Hope the end result makes it more appealing.
Forgot to add. The Cornerstone in Didcot is a brilliant building to use. Maybe take a leaf out of their success …. and some design ideas.
It’s a very popular building with much use.
I hope you make much use of the Guildhall – it’s a great community space.
Who runs the Cornerstone?
Daniel – the Cornerstone is run by South Oxfordshire District Council and costs a fortune to run. It is a lovely building but has the big advantage of being purpose- built – some 30 – 40 years after the Abbey Hall and some 700 years after the rest of the Guildhall!
A closer comparison is the Beacon in Wantage. I spent a few hours in there yesterday (more of which elsewhere in due course) so had the chance to take stock – it struck me as a lot better than the Abbey Hall, but not very inspiring – I hope the TC have at least slightly igher aspirations than that..
Wouldn’t it be nice ( as the beach boys sang) if we could all have a say? Or better still if the TC were to invite a few well meaning, common sense individuals to have some input ?
What a mess. It seemed like we were on the right track with an independent cinema operator. OK, it would have cost some money, but the return in terms of a professionally run facility is way higher than what is being proposed and the risk would be shared. It seems like we are getting far less, it’s still costing alot but worst of all the town still holds all the risk. I’m with Iain that they need to get this back on a proper commercial footing.
What a mess. It seemed like we were on the right track with an independent cinema operator. OK, it would have cost some money, but the return in terms of a professionally run facility is way higher than what is being proposed and the risk would be shared. It seems like we are getting far less, it’s still costing alot but worst of all the town still holds all the risk. I’m with Iain that they need to get this back on a proper commercial footing.
What a mess. It seemed like we were on the right track with an independent cinema operator. OK, it would have cost some money, but the return in terms of a professionally run facility is way higher than what is being proposed and the risk would be shared. It seems like we are getting far less, it’s still costing alot but worst of all the town still holds all the risk. I’m with Iain that they need to get this back on a proper commercial footing.
Ah the Cornerstone. What a brilliant building. I’ve hired this for a multicultural show and course and had visitors from all round the world attending, which Abingdon missed out on – I was delighted at the superb facilities. Dance studios, a number of changing rooms and a private one with shower, the theatre and backstage is perfect and has a full weekly programme, the cafe is large, airy, sells alcohol and has plenty of seating, and there’s more studios too. This facility is booked throughout the year with classes and is hired out at such reasonable costs. It’s hard to get a place.
There is nearby ample parking – and a variety of superb shops – all in one location. Oh …. it’s easy to get to too as they have a railway station. Great for my overseas visitors who flew into my event.
Abingdon has nothing like this, and though I run a business in the town I go to Didcot for the facilities.
Can Abingdon compare to this?
Who on earth would want Abingdon on Thames to compare or compete with Didcot Keynes?
The bizarre irony is that Cornerstone (gold level facilities) is being provided by the local council. In Abingdon, we weren’t prepared to commit to a mid range silver offer with shared risk.
What is now being proposed for the Guildhall is bronze level facilities (at best) but the council and town carries all the risk.
Iain – wasn’t the original plan for the Guildhall (approx silver level facilities) that an idependent commercial operator take on much of the risk to deliver a cinema and bar offer etc? Please be honest, am I missing something here?
It feels like Abingdon isn’t getting any of the benefits (we get bronze rather than silver or gold) but the town is still carrying all the risk and costs for what looks like a second or third rate venture……….meanwhile, in Didcot, the council are underwriting ‘gold’ level facilities!
Please can someone be put in charge with an ounce of commercial nouse?
You’re correct Steve
The town council received an offer to run the whole facility and provide a lease income from a successful independent cinema operator. This would turn the existing subsidy (£180k according to the coubcil’s business case although I think that’s overstated) into a surplus – approx £200k swing less cost of any borrowing.
They offered capital funding and verbally agreed that they would be prepared to support a scheme where the council’s capital investment would be constrained. I suggested £2.5m but if the council wanted a different sum I’m sure they could have negotiated. They also gave strong assurances around community group usage.
The big question I fail to understand is why the new council/guildhall committee made a decision without any discussion with any of the bidders (I have spoken to all of them and they are mystified).
I’ll leave people to draw their own conclusions.
I should probably know this, but who are the new guildhall committee and how does one communicate with them?
The chair is a guy called Dennis Garrett, vice chair is Mike Badcock, members are Robert Hall, Neil Fawcett, Samantha Bowring/Fawcett, Jan Mortar, Brian Hedley.
Sandy Lovatt and Helen Pighills are also ex officio members on all committees.
The easiest way to communicate with them is to table (in writing, at least a few days in advance) a question to them, then turn up at their committee meeting to ask (you generally have to put the question in person). The next meeting is on 29thFebruary according to their website.
Steve – you can find committee memberships on the TC website http://www.gov.uk Guildhall Committee is:
Cllr Michael Badcock
Cllr Samantha Bowring
Cllr Neil Fawcett
Cllr Dennis Garrett (Chair)
Cllr Robert Hall
Cllr Brian Hedley
Cllr Jan Morter
Their email addresses are also on the website.
Sorry – Iain’s reply wasn’t there when I started typing – I’m a bit slow!
I think we’ve all lost sight of what the TC are trying to achieve here.? Iain, I recal you specifically stating at Ameeting you convened between yourself and a number of doubters that your remit was not, repeat not, to provide Abingdon with a cinema, but merely to reduce the annual loss, transforming the guildhall into a full blown cinema was never on the agenda, from anyone, yet now it seems to be the focus of the gripe about this latest set of plans, Be mindful that with 900 houses going to North Abingdon and another 250 to the south oupopulation will soon be approaching 40k and that may just be enough to tempt a stand alone cinema company here ? Meanwhile these new plans would ensure the guildhall is still a community space for all?
Noticed in Oxford Mail that Abingdon will be having a Beacon in the Market place on April 21st for the Queens Birthday and Bun Throwing on June 11th. Have I missed all the news about that? Seems like TC do have money to burn.
the meeting you refer to was several years ago and before we started specific discussions with potential operators and it became very clear that an expanded cinema offer was more feasible than i had expected and could not only reduce but eliminate the current subsidy, whilst pretty much maintaining the current community uses (there would be an impact of expanding from the wedding offer so that would be a trade off).
My objection is that they have turned this down out of hand and without any discussion with the bidders on any concerns they had. It’s just bad mismanagement of the communities resources and a lost opportunity to both eliminate the subsidy and deliver a service to the town that it actually wants.
I’m sure that even now the professional operators would still be open to discussion with the council were they actually to speak to them rather than blythely pursuing their village hall dream.
Iain this is beginning to sound like sour grapes, you’ve just listed the names of the committee and suggested the best way of communicating with them, given that you feel so strongly about this may I suggest you write to the committee highlighting all your concerns and bringing your proposals to the table? You can keep us all informed by posting a copy of your letter on here and I’m sure Backstreeter will attend the meeting and report on the meeting ?
Thank you as always for your suggestion.
If you mean by sour grapes that i am unhappy with the decision they have made, then yes – i think this is a bad and costly mistake.
If you mean it’s in some way personal, then no. I’ve no problem with the town council as an institution, as individuals or their decision making on any other substantive matter that i can think of.
In terms of communicating with them, i am sure they are well aware of my views on this matter.
Put it in writing to them then Iain, that’s what you’re encouraging everyone else to do !
As it happens I did when i put in my foi request months ago.
FYI my post above is not any particular encouragement, it’s an explaination of the process in answer to Steve’s question. I do think it’s a good idea though if people do express their opinions to councillors as sometimes councillors can disproportionately listen to a small number of vocal people, which is not always a good thing.
Iain..as i recall at the meeting captain referred too…you refused point blank to listen to anyone..and ploughed on with your vanity project regardless of common sense? I still have yet to see any evidence that the Vale or TC has approached a major cinema chain with a view to installing a “proper’ purpose built cinema/bowling complex/leisure centre that a town the size of Abingdon needs and deserves! All we heard from you was that they wern’t interested because there are other cinemas within a 10 (?) mile radius…which doesn’t seem to apply to Botley or Didcot..or even Oxford itself?
And it does very much sound like sour grapes now that they have seen sense and not carried on with “your” pet project in it’s exact form that you wanted.
I did listen to you Julian – i just didnt agree with your view.
As i recall Julian your request was for me to make sure we got a commercial cinema in town, and not a pop up arrangement.
You wanted a multiplex and i told you that they wouldn’t come to Abingdon. I know for a fact that both major chains have been approached and they are not interested in Abingdon due to the proximity to Didcot and Kazam respectively. This fits exactly with the expert advice the council received and i shared with you at that meeting.
The next best thing is an experienced independent operator who will show mainstream content, and this was the strategy we followed, aft the bid for funding from HLF was turned down (this was still live when we met).
The town council received 4 bids from independent operators. Three were very credible and one was particularly strong.
It is this that the town council has turned down.
Iain, I’m not trying to push you into a corner but if what you say is true then surely you owe it to Abingdon to write that letter to the next committee meeting and ask for a formal reply as to why they have chosen not to go with it?
To be fair to them Steve – neil has tried to put his view on their reasoning on this site previously. Sadly they wont publish the numbers they have rejected so you can’t really see the strength of the case. They redacted the important numbers in their response to my FOI request.
If i recall their reasoning was that they felt the operators didnt want to put in enough money, they felt the existing community usage would be compromised (although given its empty 85% of the time there’s not that much use to compromise) and they are happy to continue with roughly the current subsidy. (I’m sure neil will clarify)
In my view if these are the genuine reasons, they are all areas where they could have negotiated particularly when this was the exploratory rather then final stage of a tender process, hence my concern regarding their commercial acumen.
This is all so confusing Iain, I don’t who or what to believe anymore, it’s such a pity no-one from the organising committee will make a statement ?
I will happily write a letter to them. I am deeply frustrated by the lack of facilities in our town. It’ a disgrace. I don’t believe a town whose residents have significant disposal income should put up with such a second rate offer. Frankly, I couln’t give a toss about the politics, I just want the best for my family and the town. I am concerned that the people making the decisions lack sound commercial experience. That business case or is it a ‘business planning document’ is nothing short of a joke. If I put that in front of my senior management, I’d be sent packing and lucky to keep my job.
…not allowed to say that Steve. Mustn’t leave out any demographics.
Steve – drop me an email if you’d like to discuss in person some time – happy to fill you in on more details than can easily cover in this sort of exchange – Alastair has my email address.
Steve, if you find out anything interesting about the Guildhall that frustrates you further, or satiates your bewilderment please do let us know at AbingdonFirst and bring that understanding to a wider audience. Even if it doesn’t go on here (The Blog), there are many who still want to know about the situation and AbingdonFirst will be happy to host that information.