The Vale of White Horse District was in favour of remaining, and so the result is painful to a lot of us who felt a part of the wider European Community.
Within the new structures that are to come into being, while things are in spin, it must be a good time to continue working for a fair, just and equal society – one that helps tackle poverty, climate change and the refugee crisis – causes Jo Cox fought for all her life.
Really well put Backstreeter
Spot on
Well put, as usual
Good reminder, Backstreeter; thanks for the wonderful daily input.
We should also put money into our services for the mentally ill. The Government supervised the closure of many large psychiatric hospitals, These were not ideal but if people became ill they could at least get treatment. The Government sold off the land but did not fund adequate services for the mentally ill. There have been many complaints that families cannot get care for very ill relatives. Now very ill people are put out into the community without back up services if they become ill again. It was reported that the man who killed Jo Cox consulted a psychiatric social worker before he killed her. Also the man who knifed someone in the pound shop in Abingdon also was released from hospital even though his doctor opposed the release.
On a seperate (but possibly tentatively linked), issue, I went on a refresher AED defibrillator course..and suddenly realised that i do not know of any public AED’ s in Abingdon. I googled it abd saw that one was installed in John Mason school awhile ago..but does anyone know of any in the town centre? Maybe if there are any Backstreeter could put a post with photos of locations? If not, then maybe we should think about raising funds for at least one? They are between £700 -£1500 I am told. They are simple to use…they tell you what to do in clear vocal instructions, and it could mean the difference between life and death. Apologies for hijacking the post..i just felt it was too important not to mention.
Hi Julian, A good idea. The only defibrillators in the Town Centre are at Doctors’ Surgeries. I would email the Town Council to ask if one could be put on the Market Place in site of security camera. I should not think fund raising will be a problem, just positioning.
Janet I totally agree that better funding is needed for the Mental Heath Services for more beds when needed, and more crisis nurses to be called out round the clock. The recent Panarama showing how difficult it was getting a bed was horrendous. If there is to be extra cash for the NHS then now is a good time to petition the leaders in waiting. They made the promises about NHS funding so make sure they are reminded again and again.
Getting back to the original post, it isn’t co-incidental to the political backdrop that the murderer of Jo Cox was a far-right extremist and the Poundland victim Polish. Many Eastern European people are feeling very frightened at the moment.
….and therefore 15m people are racist?
Hey Vox Populi, they/you have nothing to fear from those who voted to leave or otherwise, this was a vote against the establishment, not one based around immigration, whether that be from the EU or from elsewhere in the world, take comfort from the fact the only reason GB entered WW2 was because Germany invaded Poland!
Now you might have thought the Europe would have learnt from that dreadful event? But just a few decades later Germany once more ( that’s 3 times in 100 years) are flexing their muscles over most of Europe, (all be itin the political and commerce sense) today, Junkers ( no doubt related to the ww2 plane makers who bombed the hell out of England during the blitz?) has demanded we activate our exit article immediately and leave asap! Well mr Junkers you can stick your dictatorial threats where the sun don’t shine !
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-britons-who-voted-to-leave-the-eu
Something worth reading from The (Manchester) Guardian.
Yeah, folks, I’m eclectic.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
More than 2m signatures on this petition in one day. I wonder what will happen if it gets up to 20m?
Nothing Rachel, no point in closing the stable door once the horse has bolted ! Just been looking on YouTube at the 60’s, pre EU, we had a thriving fishing industry, steal works supplying the world, an agriculture that catered for all our needs, umpteen car manufacturers ( Cowley employed 56,000 people, we had a ship building industry, we led the world in fashion and music, most could afford to buy a house, if they couldn’t there was a council house system that worked, life was good, things happened, people were free of red tape, the sort that’s held us back for a generation!, look what we’ve given the world?( Apart from football, cricket, tennis, rugby) the jet engine, the Internet , we split the atom, wilberforce brought about the abolition of slavery, the NHS, pensions, the Tolpudle martyres who brought about labour reforms, the missionaries who spread Christianity throughout the world, the scouts, the W I, the Salvation Army, world leaders in medicine, science, the arts and a thousand years of culture and history, Rock on England !
We’re now free of incumbent, catch us if you can !
Back in the sixties young people famously rebelled against the views of the older generation. Personally I’m hoping young people today will find similar inspiration to take on the older generation that has sold them down the river.
I’m not one for looking to the past. much prefer to be outward and forward thinking. Free Market Economy
One would assume the same as if it gets to 100,000? It will be considered for debate. I guess….it may even get debated?
However, it may have been a good idea, if it were such a concern, if such a petition were created *before,* that democratic vote thingy we had a couple of days ago.
It’s ever so strange how the remainers are so convinced that they are right…that they have now been hard done by. Their “right way” is no more or less right than my (our) “right way”. Some might say that it is such arrogant thinking that got them in to this position in the first place? Perhaps if they spent a little more energy before the event positively promoting their cause, rather than resting on misplaced laurels or spreading such fear they have now even duped themselves, and so much so they are nowl agog and in shock at how complacent they have been; they may have engaged those 30% who couldn’t be bothered to vote? I for one was firmly on the fence, and was crying out to be convinced one way or the other. In the end…I was. It’s not my fault that, for me, there was only one convincing argument.
I have many fears since the result…but the scariest one is from the vitriolic hard done by remainers.
Undermining the very essence of the diplomatic process….? It seems the remainers and The EU masters are obvious bedfellows after all, sharing such sad regard for The People.
And with regards Mr Junker…I think someone needs to remind him….that he can’t tell us what to do anymore. When we’re ready… we’ll initiate Article 50. Nothing beyond what was expected (if voted Leave) has happened. The future is long; we don’t have to have it entirely resolved by Wednesday tea time.
In the meantime…yes, it is the end of a romantic relationship, but as the old saying goes; “it’s not me; it’s you”….
Ian, you never sease to amaze me! It’s exactly because of our young people the older generation voted in such numbers, (accordingly less than 40% of under 25’s bothered to vote) unlike you I remember a time when GB wasn’t part of the EU and since we joined I have witnessed the gradual errosdion of our industries and our principles, the very bedrock of this magnificent country has been eroded, bit by bit, by the E U, moreover it is the self claimed elitist like you and reductio that caused this reaction, tell me Ian, how have you and reductio benefited the UK? Do you own companies that employ? Pay masses of tax? Invent ? Play the money markets ? Import & export? No of course you don’t, you think because you had a privileged education you know more than the rank and file, but like Cameron knows only to well, the worms can turn, carry on posting your snobby views on life, no one is taking any notice! Power to the people and rock on England !
Ps, excuse spelling, I went to a council school !
MP Jo Cox believed in tolerance and respect of others. She said in her diverse Yorkshire constituency people had far more in common than what divided them.
Oh yes the 60’s The era of “No Blacks, No Irish, No dogs”, pit owners with such a disregard for safety they flattened a school and of course, good old Jimi Saville. When you could beat your children and rape your wife and no one thought any the worse of you. Those were the days eh Captain?
…that does rather suggest there were no good bits, and today there are no bad bits.
I am really saddened by the tone of some of these comments but I like the last para of Backstreeter’s original post: “Within the new structures that are to come into being, while things are in spin, it must be a good time to continue working for a fair, just and equal society – one that helps tackle poverty, climate change and the refugee crisis – causes Jo Cox fought for all her life.”
We are moving into unknown territory but that is what I will be focusing on – in lots of things I do, not just commenting on blogs.
…what makes you think i didnt go to a state school Steve?
…What makes you think I am not old enough to remember pre -EU times (admittedly I was quite young at the time)?
…I agree about some (of the declines you list – unlike you I don’t believe that it was all down to our membership of the EU
…i don’t know why you think I’m, or others who disagree with you, are elitist?
…I’m not sure what the strength of my argument, or otherwise, has to do with what I do for a living – sadly I pay loads of tax, contribute in various volutary roles, am a husband and father, none of which makes my arguments more or less valid
finally state schools are very good at teaching spelling!
Daniel, surely no more than The Captain in post 13 could be taken to be suggesting the opposite? All eras have good and bad things about them, all we can hope is the things that we do in our time are done for well thought through reasons and stand the scrutiny of hindsight. Some will, some won’t and sadly I personally think this referendum will not perform well on either criteria. That doesn’t mean I think everyone who voted to leave is uneducated or racist ( or both) and it also doesn’t mean I won’t do everything I can to make a Britain outside of the EU the best place I possibly can for the sake of my and everyone else’s children and grandchildren, wherever they choose or are forced to live.
comment removed for name calling
Ian, my point is exactly what’s just happened in this vote, Cameron, corbyn and the guy in charge of throne defunct lib dems all backed remain, but the majority of the country voted to leave, doesn’t that illustrate just how out of touch they are? whether or not it’s the right thing or not for the country remains to be seen, the fact remains that the the leaders of three main party’s did not represent or even acknowledge the feeling of the nation and in a democracy that’s unacceptable!
And before you pull me up on my spelling, you try typing on an I phone with predicted text and sausage fingers
Steve – you raised spelling not me (and my name is still not Ian)
Backing Leave were The Sun, Daily Mail, Daily Express, Daily Star, and Daily Telegraph. They are all part of the establishment.
Captain. Like Iain I went to a state school. I left at 16 to take up an engineering apprenticeship and by hard work and I guess being fortunate enough to be reasonably intelligent I got the qualifications to go to a Polytechnic and study computing. I financed this with a grant and by working 2.5 days a week on the covered market in Oxford. While I was working in computing I played a significant role in the development and roll out of one of the things you quote as being great about Britain. While I was working I paid a significant amount in tax until I was made redundant and being well over 50th was unable to find work. Choosing not to claim benefits I sold my family home and became self employed. I have never proclaimed my self to be elitist (why would I do that) or a member of the elite, as I’m guessing you actually mean but I’m not ashamed to be capable of rational thought or that I have a good vocabulary (which given the fact I grew up in a house with just 2 books, one of which was the family bible I’m actually rather proud of). You really seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder about something and I hope you find a way to resolve your anger and feelings of inferiority soon.
After another night or two’s sleep I sincerely hope that both sides come together (including Scotland), accept that this has been a democratic decision, and work to put Britain first and build a better future for our youngsters.
Please, no more bleating from the “snowflake generation” 18-24’s, 2/3 of whom could not be bothered to vote.
Please, no more sermonizing from the morally superior who somehow believe that the European mainland has more to teach us than we do them. (While in Abingdon we threw buns to the crowd, in Ypres they lobbed kittens from the belfry.)
Please, no more “we have never had it so good as now and we have just lost it”, when the nuclear family has all but gone, and hardly anyone under 30 can buy a house and have enough left to raise children
Remember there is a lot of truth in “united we stand divided we fall”. Regardless of the result, I was determined to make a go of it, and those who are not prepared to, need to think again about what values they really stand for.
None of us should have to justify ourselves on here in terms of what school we went to or what qualifications we have. (If we did have to justify ourselves on anything it should be what we have done/are doing with our lives, not what we were born into).
We all have a right to express our opinions and should respect the rights of others to do likewise, without judging them. Trying, by rational argument, to persuade others to change their view is fine, gentle good-humoured mockery can be OK – personal attacks and insults are not – ever.
I just want to give thumbs up to these last two comments. Thank you.
Reductio; it is possible that there are people like me, who respect what you say and the erudite, measured way that you say it on this wonderful blog. However I do feel that the slight easing of tension, the sigh of relief, the hope that your post#23 appears to offer….is totally undermined by the final few, seemingly pernicious, words.
I hope I have misunderstood the sentiment.
Daniel, you have indeed misunderstood the sentiment. The final sentence of post 29 was meant in a genuine spirit of concern but reading it back I can see it contains words more commonly used, particularly on line, as a sort of passive aggressive insult and I apologise if you, the Captain or anyone else took it that way.
I agree with Captainkaos2. If any of the remainers were asked why 52.5 people voted to leave the E U they would not have a clue. They have lost connection with what is really going on in the UK. When I expressed sympathy with the people who were going to be made redundant in the steelworks I was criticized. The vote was not about racism, but wanting to preserve our standard of living. People voted for a common market not a Federal State of Europe where unelected people who did not care about the UK would have a free rain to impose anything on the UK, whether it was for our good or not. We did not trust the career politicians who sold the UK out to act in our best interest.
The 15 million people who voted to remain are no more homogenous than the 17 million who voted to exit or the 13 million who chose not to vote or the 15 million people who werent entitled to vote.
Hear, hear, Iain.
Janet – presumably you trust Boris and Michael Gove more? The former has been sacked from two jobs for lying to his bosses and made a shambles of his only other political leadership role (Mayor of London). Michael Gove, also a former journalist, put his pet theories in to place against the advice of the advice of most of those who understand education and left the British education system in the dire state it is in now. I am worried sick about being led by them – but hopefuly I am wrong!
Sorry for typos – they happen to the best of us!
Hear, Hear, Iain and Hester, one of things that worries me most about this whole thing is who on earth can we trust to negotiate a sensible exit? Nicola Sturgeon if you are Scottish, Jeremy Corbyn if there were enough other people in the PLP with the guts and socialist belief to back him but since neither of those are true I’m at a loss. Maybe the 3 of us should offer our services?
I wonder if they’d ever bring on someone like Hague to run a unity national government involving all parties to disentange us from Europe. Bit like they did under Lloyd George.
I see on sky News that the Tata Steel rescue bidders are getting jittery because of Brexit.
Sky News eh! Remind me what their boss’ position was on this?
And in other news….Tata Steel deal looks more promising due to Brexit (Guardian Online 6pmish).
Sorry…I didn’t mean to bring an air of positivity to the situation.
I’ll climb back under my rock of shame, in the shadows, in the dark recesses of stupidity… and let the schadenfreude and scare mongering continue. Again, my apologies.
Oh, don’t do that Daniel. Let’s build on that air of positivity with the answer to a couple of simple questions. I’m making what seems like a safe assumption that you voted to leave so
1) When you voted to leave, who did you want to handle the negotiations following article 50 being triggered?
2) What was the precise deal you were expecting to be the result of those negotiations?
Iain it was not the vote of the old that sold out the young. I listened to the arguments of the young for remaining and all that they seemed to be worried about was visa free travel to the EU. They were not worried about the NHS or housing or any of the problems we have in this country. I do agree with you in that we need strong people to lead the negotiations to leave the EU. When Cameron signed the agreement to let Turkey into the EU a diplomat said it is if the UK negotiators were scared. Our negotiators are seen as appeasers and not respected. One Frenchman quipped, what is the difference between a Frenchman and an Englishman? If an Englishman went out with a Frenchman’s girlfriend the Frenchman would challenge him, however if a Frenchman went out with an Englishman’s girlfriend the Englishman would apoligise to the Frenchman. We need a strong leader who is committed to getting the best deal for the UK and believes in the UK. I am not a conservative but I do respect Mrs Thatcher for standing up to the EU and getting our rebate. Tony Blair was the greatest traitor this country ever had.
Oh dear, I’ve just taken the time to read that ‘positive’ Guardian on line article about the Tata Steel deal. In the version I read (maybe it knows I voted to stay and is giving me a different spin on it, who knows) it says that the negative impact of potentially leaving the EU is offset by the ‘benefits’ of a weaker pound and so the deal will go ahead “unless something drastic happens” in the next week.
The guardian confirms that Wilbur Ross has said he’s planning to pull out of the Tata sale process, it also says that the crash in sterling means steel prices are now a bit more competitive but only if the givernment underwrites the £15bn pension scheme liabilities. I think thats the first year and a half of the annual saving on EU membership.
Also interesting to hear IDS finally backing down on the £350m pw extra for the NHS.
Thank you Janet, perhaps noes the time for the creation of a new party? Much is said about who will lead the exit negotiations, it can only be successfully carried out by an all party coalition? What’s the old saying? ” cometh the hour cometh the man” personally I would like to Terisa May as PM for the remainder of the term overseeing a collaboration of people ( not necessarily MP’s) to
Negotiate the way out and by the time if the next election a new, centre right party could be a serious contender to win the next election?
I would also like to see a limit of some sort out on the amount of time MP’s spend st Westminster instead of their constituencies, perhaps if they had done that they might have better judged the outcome of the Brexit vote? It’s all to easy to get sucked into the Westminster gravy train, chase the headlines and in doing so loose touch of what they really ought to be doing, listening too and representing their constituents ?
BTW, what will become of the Kinnocks? No longer will Neal, rejected by the nation, be able to claim his £200k plus expenses a year “wage” and Glynis too? What a farce, no wonder the nation voted to leave ?
Janet you are obviously privy to significantly more information than the rest of us so can you please enlighten me just what David Cameron signed to ‘let Turkey into the EU’?
On another note I would hope that both the Englishman and the Frenchman would accept that as a consenting adult their girlfriend was free to choose who she went out with?
Janet – per my earlier post – there are no doubt many different reasons that young people voted to remain, not just freedom of travel or to work abroad (although I’m sure that’s one of them). I havent heard any evidence to suggest you g people dont care about the NHS and I think rather a lot of them are very concerned about housing. Maybe they just dont agree with you that leaving the EU will help matters.
I think Janet has in mind http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10773007
From 2010. Speaking in Ankara, the Prime Minister said that he was “angry” at the lack of progress in the negotiations. He said that the UK will do everything it can to help Turkey “pave the road from Ankara to Brussels to support the Turkey membership bid”.
It’s a shame Erdewan is such a nasty bit of work – I’ve worked with some excellent Turkish people
Oops, sorry. Everything is really really bad, and it is going to be forever.
No Daniel – I’m sure things will settle down. Unfortunately we’ve got a whole heap of pain to go through between now and then. The things we’re pointing out aren’t things we’ve made happen to make you look naive – this is just the way the economy works.
I’m still struggling James Dunn, I’ve read that article (from nearly 6 years ago) and everything that links from it and nowhere is there any mention of David Cameron signing anything that would admit Turkey to the EU then or now, nothing that even suggests he wanted to bypass the rules and regulations for membership then or now, in fact he suggests ( in that article from 6 years ago) that any membership of the EU for Turkey should include limited access to freedom to settle in other member countries until their relative economies ‘balanced out’. If there are sound reasons for leaving the EU why is there an almost pathological need to invent false ones and embellish those there are to the point of absurdity?
The leave campaign probably embellished this and misled Janet. I can see easily why people voted leave. For one thing the Sun newspaper was given away free in target areas for a whole year before the referendum according to one person I spoke to from South Wales. Leave were far better prepared than Remain.
Arguing for keeping things as they are is always more difficult than arguing for change, and historically electorates always give governments a mid-term kicking.
There is rarely just one single reason for voting – which is why dear old Bernard Levin mistrusted what he called “single issue politics”; it always more complicated that A or B.
I think that Iain (and many others) are right: this is going to take a long time to sort out. Meanwhile, the world will continue to turn on its axis. Politics is a short-term game in a long-term universe!
The European Commission and Remainers … hubris thwarted … ever so cross.
So finally we have a statement from the ‘leading exit politician” (admittedly words he was paid £5000 for in his newspaper column but words at least)
“The only change – and it will not come in any great rush – is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU’s extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal.”
He explains that there will still be free trade and free movement of labour and people (free as in unfettered, not free as in no cost) and has already admitted that there won’t be an extra £350M a week for the NHS. Meanwhile the pound continues to fall and major companies announce relocation plans and recruitment freezes.
Quite how he expects the EU to allow their citizens to work freely in a country that doesn’t support their labour laws or to trade freely with a country that doesn’t respect their trade laws he doesn’t say.
Just one question for the leavers. Is this what you wanted when you voted to leave?
I had constructed a fairly lengthy reply to some earlier questions you asked Reductio – but they haven’t appeared yet; so there may be some unanswered questions to me still floating around. Am happy to pick them up if I miss any…
In answer to #58….
Do you want a very straight forward yes/no? Not sure I can give it. I think, in essence to all your questions…I want exactly what you want; just I don’t want to be ‘controlled’ by Europe (whatever that means).
Did you know…that some people who voted Leave, didn’t do so because of a headline about £350m? Did you know that some people who voted Leave didn’t do so because of immigration/free movement of people?
I know it is convenient to believe that 15million people, who disagreed with you, are obviously stupid. But they aren’t all stupid enough to make their decision based on the most current headline….
I haven’t read the detail – I’m never one to let facts spoil a good argument – I can’t remember where it has been said that the UK doesn’t/won’t “respect” EU labour laws? I also am not sure why trade laws wouldn’t be respected either?
I think, the answer to your most recent question is; as we don’t know what we are getting yet…I can’t tell you if it is what I wanted/expected.
I think it is odd that the massive, huge fallout of changing the future of a continent; you are judging on what happens in the hours after the decision. This (if it carried on), transcends this week, and next week. 12 months, 5 years…my children’s future…that’s when we will be able to judge whether we made the right decision, surely. Not by Thursday tea time?
You asked: 1) When you voted to leave, who did you want to handle the negotiations following article 50 being triggered?
2) What was the precise deal you were expecting to be the result of those negotiations?
Answer# 1 – Wasn’t bothered, didn’t think about it. The issue is bigger than that.
Answer # 2 – Kind of ditto. What the bloomin hell do I know about precise trade negotiations!?
Can I ask you:
Were you happy with the chap who negotiated the pre referendum deal that we had?
-What were the *precise* details of those negotiations, please feel free to list every single one.
-Please can you also precisely detail ALL the risks associated with us remaining in the EU,
-Please could you precisely detail the UK future if/when the EU finally were to implode – ie The Plan B, if we remain(ed)? and finally,
-If we voted Remain, please can you, as it would be good to hear it at least once; even though possibly too late, please could you tell me the precise reasons why we should [have] remained in Europe; remember, no hindsight allowed.
I don’t know if it is the right decision, none of us do. I concede that. But it is the one I made. I didn’t do it for some instant gratification. I didn’t do it so I could dance on the table on Friday morning. Like many others, I cried on Friday morning. I hugged my wife and we contemplated what had been done. But you know what…..really hard, I mean really, really tough decisions are sometime really upsetting.
I wonder, if the result were reversed; I truly wonder how many people on THAT Friday morning would have reacted the same but on the other side? Would they really have contemplated exactly what it means for all our futures, to remain in the EU???
Well, here’s my headline….I think many remainers voted Remain…but they wouldn’t have a clue why.
Not saying that’s good. Not saying that’s bad. I tried to inform myself the best I could and made a decision. Perhaps I made the wrong decisions, but for the right reasons…is that better or worse than making the ‘right’ decision based on no reasons at all?
I voted leave…and would do again. My main reasons…
1) I do not believe for one minute that Turkey won’t be “allowed” to join the EU sooner rather than later..they have the EU over a barrel with the amount of Syrian refugees they’ve allowed in. (I did not believe Dave and his promise that they would not be allowed in). That along with several other Countries who are clamouring to join the EU because of low wages and living conditions in their own Countries.
2) I REALLY REALLY didn’t like the way we were threatened by Obama, and told that we would be at the back of the queue in any trade deals with the states.
3) I could not take the scaremongering of the Remain camp seriously…all things from trade problems, to recession, to even all out war with Europe!
4) A whole raft of millionaire “Celebs”, who don’t even live in this country, some of whom evade paying taxes to this country, and have no idea of the problems faced (or potential future problems to be faced), if hundreds of thousands of extra people are allowed to flood in to this already stretched to the limits (Health service, housing, infrastructure), Isle.
5) The obscene amount of money that is wasted on the EU, from moving from Brussels to Strasbourg, not to mention the obscene wages and expenses that are paid to the gravy-train politicians (Mr & Mrs Kinnock spring to mind…but there are 100’s of others).
So there you have some of my reasons…it MAY have been the wrong decision, but until the dust settles we won’t know? I knew when I voted that there would be a period of financial instability. What I didn’t expect was the vitriolic hatred of anyone who dared to vote to leave, and the condescending way that we have been portrayed as thick, not understanding fully, even racist bigots , by the Remain voters, on blogs such as these, the press, tv news, and on social media!
Thanks for taking then time to respond Daniel. There’s a lot there to digest but I’ll give it my best shot.
Personally I would describe myself as ‘risk averse’. The way my mind works tends to focus on worse case scenarios and that, in conjunction with an understanding of and respect for game theory is fundamentally why I voted remain. The options for improving things just seemed ‘better’ from within the EU than outside of it, particularly when I explored scenarios like the rise of far right politics, the reaction of some (and I mean only some by no means all or the majority) of the people I had heard express what were without a shadow of a doubt racist and xenophobic reasons for wanting to leave and my lack of confidence in any politician currently in power being able to negotiate a good deal if we left. In addition I felt there was likely to be a very hard line from the EU in an effort to prevent others from thinking about leaving and little chance (for the same reason) of getting a better deal than Norway et. al. to prevent them from kicking off.
I wasn’t overly happy with the ‘concessions’ Dave managed to get before the referendum, the results of those negotiations are in the public domain so no need to cut and paste them here I would suggest. I had little confidence in his ability to ‘get a good deal’ if we left but even less in anyone else who might take the job on.
No matter what your personal reasons to vote leave were, you have every right to hold them and I respect that but it seems to me that there were many others who were swayed by the idea that leaving the EU would reduce immigration and make more money available for the NHS. I could see that that was never going to happen and that simply put the result I wanted was in danger as a result of people who believed a pack of lies. Not because they were stupid, or racists but because we live in a society that, despite what we all say about the media and politicians, tends towards the belief that if something is on the tele, in the papers or on line it has somehow been checked for veracity by someone else so they don’t need to research sources or check provenance, particularly if it fits their own world view. That, in closing, is the reason I keep banging on about people posting half truths and exaggerations here and elsewhere, not because I want to prove that I’m somehow better that them or to say “I told you so” but in the hope that ultimately people will start to question for themselves.
I too am grateful for the dialogue Reductio; I am continually learning throughout all of this. I guess the sad thing may be that that learning continues now, after the vote. I think we likely want the same thing. However, perhaps being a child of the 80’s – I want it, and I want it now – which, when it comes to ‘change’…it has been happening too slowly, if at all, whilst in the EU. I saw (see) hope outside, however, and in contradiction to my 80’s childhood, I can also see that such huge change is going to take a very long time. So much so it totally transcends all this “short term pain”, who might do the job now, or negotiations etc. Perhaps naive; but I think in the long run; we have a chance to be better. I think it is worth taking that chance. This is doubly odd, as anyone who knows me would tell you…I am, usually, the most risk averse person you could ever hope to meet! I even drive a Citroen!! Having said all this, whilst I do think that this is a very long term change….the foundations for my decision will start to erode if some semblance of a plan isn’t fourth coming soon. I don’t expect one “today”…but I do, as a minimum expect one. So…today I don’t think I have made a mistake; but I am willing to concede that time will tell. I know you think this has been a huge mistake; but I hope there is at least scope for you to be proved wrong and you willing to concede it, if (when) the time comes.
Let’s give it a couple or 5 years…then we can meet up, and decide which one of us is going to eat his hat…
For once I agree with reduction etc. We do not have any confidence in our politicians to get a good deal for us. You cannot really think that people as so stupid as to believe everything that we read in the Media. My sister works for the Health Service in Coirnwall. She said people can see things with their own eyes. The Heath Service there have been told to make massive cuts and are planning to closed several hospitals, while we send copious amounts of money to the EU and on foreign aid The EU has banned line fishing from the shore and they only have to look out to sea and huge foreign factory ships are scooping up the UK’s fish. All the factories in Cornwall will not employ Cornish unemployed but will only employ Eastern European workers bused in. She said people are fed up with it all.
Indeed Daniel. By the 80’s I was a happily married man, childhood long gone 🙂
The reality is that neither camp can be ‘proved wrong’ since we are only playing out one of the scenarios (although, of course, there is somewhere a parallel universe where we voted to stay) I’ll be more than happy to celebrate with a large portion of hat flavoured humble pie if just a few of my worse fears are no realised though.
Oh Janet 🙁
The EU haven’t “banned line fishing from the shore” in Cornwall or anywhere else. They have imposed limits on the amount of Sea Bass that can be taken from the sea both commercially and for leisure in order (and at the request of the UK government and various environmental bodies) to prevent over fishing and extinction. Where we might find further common ground however is in the fact that the French have been told to impose similar quotas but have so far declined with no sanction. That clearly needs sorting out.
I enjoyed this comment by one observer (not on this blog):
Europe was set up by clever, catholic, left-wing, French bureaucrats. Most Brits have got problems with at three of those five.
sorry “at least three of those five”
As someone who was 18 at the 1973 referendum I believe I am more than entitled to my opinion this time around. I voted for last time, something the younger commentators should note, but after more than 40 years of the euro ‘project’ I would like to remind everyone that I voted for a free trade union and NOT the federal system that is being imposed on us. This is the first opportunity we have had to vote on the direction of the EU. I consider voting leave to be a correction of my mistake of last time. For that I apologise.
Thank you to the Gentleman who spends so much time putting this Blog together…….the comments by some are VILE
Shellsuit has hit the nail on the head. The EU has a trajectory towards a United States of Europe, but unlike the US we have no say, and our country has now spoken and rejected this. In other EU countries there are rumblings of dissent but unlike us they acquiesce. Maybe because not so long ago 1/2 were under the Nazi jackboot and the other under the USSR, they view the EU today as a Utopia?
The British have been independent and unconquered for hundreds of years and for most of us this has remained deep in our subconscious and shapes the way we view the world whether or not we know it, admit it or like it.
We joined the EU in an attempt to replace our Commonwealth export markets with sales to mainland Europe, but it all went wrong. We lost the “trade war”, bought German cars which were better, and developed a taste for French cheese which was not. Finally via poor management and pitiful political foresight we sold everything else off.
Of course there will be a recession, but at least we will soon have choices about our future strategy.
While a list of kings and queens is not a sole indicator, British history has a rich interconnection with (since 1066):
Norman French
Welsh Tudors,
Scottish Stuarts,
Dutch House of Orange
German House of Hanover
In WW1 and 2 we had help from the Commonowealth, France, the USA, Soviet Russia
Our independence has been very inter-dependent.